2 person WebGems

It's inevitable -- might as well make a forum for it. (Wait, is this supposed to be a family-friendly site?)
Post Reply
User avatar
Baseball=Life
Baseball Deity
Posts: 1031
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:16 pm
Location: SF, CA

2 person WebGems

Post by Baseball=Life » Sat May 21, 2005 12:17 pm

So, there is an ongoing off-forum debate about Webgems. The question is, can two (or more) people be awarded a webgem on the same play?

Here's the play that triggered this debate:

2nd inning, last Sunday. Paul is up to bat and he's already hit an inside-the-park-HR to right-centerfield in the 1st inning. I'm playing 2nd, Pat K at SS, Ahmer in CF, and Ken at C. Pat & I talk to each other before Paul approaches the plate, and we decide that if Paul hits one deep again, we should employ a double-relay. Meaning, one of us goes to the deep outfield and waits for the throw from the outfielder. Then we throw to the other middle infielder, who relays it to home. Well, as you all know, Paul did crush one to right-center. Ahmer chased it down and I went out to the outfield to await his throw. Then I relayed it to Pat, who was near the edge of the infield grass. Pat relayed a perfect throw home to Ken, who easily nailed Paul.

So, on this play I think the key was the perfect relay throw from Pat. But using this example, let's say that Ken had had to block the plate, or made some amazing tag. (He didn't, it was routine, but let's just say...) Then, if we met the webgem nomination standard, would it be possible to award both Pat AND Ken webgems for the same play?

I say yes, if there is webgem-quality defense, award the damn gems! A perhaps more likely scenario would be a great play on a ground ball by an infielder, then an amazing scoop by the first baseman.

NOTE: Acknowledging & employing this 2-person gem possibility will result in more possible gems for Catchers & First Basemen, who currently are given the short end of the webgem stick.
"Baseball is like church, many attend, few understand"

- Leo Durocher

User avatar
TheLegend
Babe Ruth
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:15 am
Location: Oakland, duh.
Contact:

Post by TheLegend » Sat May 21, 2005 3:47 pm

this message has been approved by TheLegend

User avatar
Tayster
Perennial All-Star
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:11 pm
Location: Over there.

Post by Tayster » Mon May 23, 2005 4:08 pm

I think a better example would be something like, a SS or 2B makes a diving stop (webgemmed), and then the 1B has to make some jumping/tagging catch or something like that (webgemmed). By your example, if Pat would recive a webgem from making a perfect throw to home, then Ken should not have to make some amazing stop/tag.
Rules:
1. I am always right.
2. If I am ever wrong, read rule number 1.

User avatar
Baseball=Life
Baseball Deity
Posts: 1031
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:16 pm
Location: SF, CA

Re: 2 person WebGems

Post by Baseball=Life » Mon May 23, 2005 7:06 pm

Baseball=Life wrote: A perhaps more likely scenario would be a great play on a ground ball by an infielder, then an amazing scoop by the first baseman.

NOTE: Acknowledging & employing this 2-person gem possibility will result in more possible gems for Catchers & First Basemen, who currently are given the short end of the webgem stick.
I know I'm verbose, but read my posts all the way through, holmes! I agree the scenario you described is a more likely 2 person gem situation.
"Baseball is like church, many attend, few understand"

- Leo Durocher

User avatar
retep
Player/Manager
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:02 am
Location: Berkeley
Contact:

Post by retep » Mon May 23, 2005 7:37 pm

Why is this under Shit-Talking:?:

User avatar
TheLegend
Babe Ruth
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:15 am
Location: Oakland, duh.
Contact:

Post by TheLegend » Mon May 23, 2005 7:44 pm

I actually think Daniel brings up a pretty good point (how often does that happen? *wink*). I don't think a first baseman should get a gem for cleanly fielding an errand throw- a routine play gone awry should not get anyone any defensive accolades.

The only time a person recieving a throw should be awarded a gem is if they had to show some defensive expertise regardless of how good or bad the throw is (i.e. a catcher blocking the plate and getting a runner out on a late throw).

User avatar
retep
Player/Manager
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:02 am
Location: Berkeley
Contact:

Post by retep » Mon May 23, 2005 7:59 pm

I disagree. The value of first basemen is totally underrated. Being a Giants fan, I have had the pleasure of watching J.T. Snow play, who is amazing. I have also learnt the value of having a great first basemen.

Having a strong first basemen makes all of the other infielders better. This is to say that you may have a shortstop ready to make a play, but maybe won’t throw it because they don’t know if the first basemen will make the play.

Receiving throws from the other players is a key part of a first basemen’s role. Having played both middle infield and first base (not just here, but on other teams) I understand the value of having a good first basemen, and how hard it is to make certain plays.

Both Anthony and I ( and I’m sure others that I am forgetting) have made the play where you jump off the bag to snare an errant throw, and then tag the runner going by. THIS IS NOT AS EASY AS IT LOOKS. I know this: I failed my first 3 or so attempts! :wink: That type of play deserves a Web Gem.

I feel that our guiding principle for a Web Gem should be “Did the player do something extraordinary at that position.” So, maybe the first basemen didn’t make a great diving stop, but without an extraordinary effort, the out would not have been made.

I’m done. :)

User avatar
Baseball=Life
Baseball Deity
Posts: 1031
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:16 pm
Location: SF, CA

gems, gems, and more gems

Post by Baseball=Life » Mon May 23, 2005 8:58 pm

Hey I accidentally put this under the Shit-talking catagory....... my mistake.


Anyway, I pretty much agree with Peter. And I've made that sweep tag play at first once myself (at a game at DeFremery when I first started wearing the knee brace).

And yeah, having someone like JT Snow at first enables so many plays, that would otherwise be infield hits, to become outs instead. I know when Anthony is the 1B on my team, my range in the infield expands for sure.

[I only wish I had seen JT Snow in Class A ball for the Prince William Canons when I lived in Virginia... but, alas, I was about 2 years too late. (And about 6 years too late to see Bobby Bonilla as a Canon. -- Those guys set many records for the Canons, whose stadium was right down the street from where I lived.)]

Anyway, here's another thought..... We need to get Pat to bring out that mower again, this time to Curt Flood. No, I'm not talking about mowing the whole infield grass, I understand that would be time prohibitive. I'm talking about mowing a triangle opposite of the first base bag, so those one-hop throws to first can take truer bounces for the first baseman. This is especially relevant to one-hop throws coming from the thirdbaseman.

And, to be more specific about why I disagree with Ken... I think that a catcher or first baseman making a "good" catch on a bad throw is gemworthy, because it is NOT comparable to an outfielder who makes a "good" catch, only because they took a bad route to the ball.

In other words, the fact that the ball or player is out of position is because of the person who made the supposed "good" play in one scenario (the OF), while the ball or player is out of position because of something external to the person making the supposed "good" play (the C or 1B).

So, if you fuck up and create a situation where you can, at the last minute make up for it and "pick yourself up", that's not gemworthy while if someone else fucks up and you pick them up, that's gemworthy.
Last edited by Baseball=Life on Tue May 24, 2005 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Baseball is like church, many attend, few understand"

- Leo Durocher

User avatar
AntMoOAK
Perennial All-Star
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:43 pm
Location: The 'Town
Contact:

Post by AntMoOAK » Tue May 24, 2005 10:32 am

Hey Peter...thanks for the plugs (and take a bow for yourself too) but I kinda agree with Scott... many plays at first base that may look gemworthy are actually just part of the "3's responsibilities. Rudimentary baseball... I'm SUPPOSED to come off the bag and "go get" the ball and apply a tag. Or any time there is an errant throw... I'm SUPPOSED to move and go get the ball and not let it sail in to the baserunner's noggin allowing the man from third to score. 1b is mundane... but some more worthy gems would be say chasing down a high pop to short right (or if in the Mac.. the expansive foul territory) or belly flopping on somepoor guy's nachos in the first row trying to catch a fly ball. Even a good Baryshnikov like STREETTTTTCCHHH on a close play may be worthy.

User avatar
retep
Player/Manager
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:02 am
Location: Berkeley
Contact:

Post by retep » Tue May 24, 2005 1:57 pm

I agree. :)

And thanks for the return plug :wink:

User avatar
TheLegend
Babe Ruth
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:15 am
Location: Oakland, duh.
Contact:

Post by TheLegend » Tue May 24, 2005 5:20 pm

i take it back

you guys are right

User avatar
tallguy
Cy Young
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:25 pm
Location: Wilsonville, OR

Post by tallguy » Tue May 24, 2005 7:24 pm

Holy shit! Did we just see a Kenyatte reversal? Wow, must be a blue moon, or something...
Rule Britannia!

Post Reply