Oakland Park Baseball Forum Index Oakland Park Baseball
Show up every Sunday at 10:30 in parks in and around Oakland!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Moneyball
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Oakland Park Baseball Forum Index -> Shit-talking
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tayster
Perennial All-Star


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

retep wrote:
This is beautiful.
What is?
_________________
Rules:
1. I am always right.
2. If I am ever wrong, read rule number 1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
retep
Player/Manager


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1043
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The discussion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tayster
Perennial All-Star


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

retep wrote:
The discussion.
O...k...

Care to elaborate?
_________________
Rules:
1. I am always right.
2. If I am ever wrong, read rule number 1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
retep
Player/Manager


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1043
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just enjoying it! SHEESH!

If I could guide the discussion back to the original purpose, the point was to give Sabean some credit for what he's done in the shadow of Billy Beane's fame.

What's clear is that the Giants have rebuilt faster than I think anyone anticipated, and it's not as if all the other teams are under .500 or something.

This is key, because the major knock against Sabean was that, while he was building winning teams around Bonds/Kent, he was doing so at the cost of the farm system... which is true!

But Sabean has shown that he can do both: win now and rebuild when needed. How many other GMs can wear both hats so well?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tayster
Perennial All-Star


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

retep wrote:
I'm just enjoying it! SHEESH!

And all I'm saying is that your saying so was rather ambiguous Wink I wasn't entirely sure what you were referring to, or even if you were being sarcastic.
Quote:
If I could guide the discussion back to the original purpose, the point was to give Sabean some credit for what he's done in the shadow of Billy Beane's fame.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think Sabean is in Beane's shadow, or anyone else was in Beane's shadow for that matter. Beane got a lot of attention because he did build winning teams (regardless of postseason failures) with a very radical system in place, while making some very shrewd moves to get some players for virtually nothing (ie: Damon, Dye, Lidle), all while doing it with constantly one of the smallest payrolls in baseball. People took notice, and now his methods are employed around the league. Sabean on the other hand had money to throw at players like Bonds, Kent and the like, which is a lot more traditional style of GMing. Thus people only noticed the bad moves, and he got a bad reputation some of which is deserved.
Quote:
What's clear is that the Giants have rebuilt faster than I think anyone anticipated, and it's not as if all the other teams are under .500 or something.
Let's be clear here... The Giants haven't had a winning season in 4 years (last one being in 04, and haven't been to the postseason since 03). That's not entirely a short stretch of time to be rebuilding. A better argument here would be no one expected the Giants to be doing as well as they are, which I would agree with. You can't say for sure that the Giants are already "rebuilt" because they're above .500 before the All-Star break. They're missing offense terribly, their pitching is what's keeping them going. How long till that falters? Who knows?

Quote:
This is key, because the major knock against Sabean was that, while he was building winning teams around Bonds/Kent, he was doing so at the cost of the farm system... which is true!

But Sabean has shown that he can do both: win now and rebuild when needed. How many other GMs can wear both hats so well?
To be truthful, Bonds hurt the team bad. Sabean was almost obligated to bring him back when he should've been let go and the money used on something better. It's a tough spot to be in knowing that you shouldn't get a guy but if you don't the fans will lynch you.

Regardless, I still contend that a GM shouldn't be lauded for taking 6 years to rebuild a team.
_________________
Rules:
1. I am always right.
2. If I am ever wrong, read rule number 1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
retep
Player/Manager


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1043
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with much of wait you said, but there is one major point I disagree with: that it took the Giants 6 years to rebuild.

The Giants haven't had a winning season since 2004--that's true, but you can hardly call that the beginning of rebuilding, so you're cut down to 5 years.

In 2005, I think nearly everyone thought the Giants had their best team on paper in... years! Though the moves look bad now, they were the ones most people would have made.
They had no shortstop, so the got Omar Visquel
They had no closer, so the got the NL saves leader in Benitez (again, who else would you have gotten that year?)
The Giants needed more power, and the got Alou to play right.

There were some other moves too, but the point was that the Giants were maneuvering to contend again. You're down to 4 years

2006 sucked. I don't even remember much of anything except that the Giants decided to make their money on the Bonds homerun chase. This was awful!

But in 2007, the Giants tried to contend again by adding Zito (after they missed on a number of outfielders that would have replaced Bonds.) The Giants were generally picked to finish last that year, but the division was so weak that Zito (before knowing he'd suck like ass) that the Giants were no considered dead on arrival. More importantly, they were not trying to rebuild.

2008 was the first year that the Giants really went into rebuilding mode. Real rebuilding mode means that you give the youth a chance to play and show their stuff. No more Bonds, Durham was benched, Visquel was benched, Aurillia was benched, and so on.

And in 2009, they are winning.

ONE YEAR REBUILDING!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tayster
Perennial All-Star


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess our differences lie in what we define as rebuilding. I personally think that if you don't make the playoffs for several years, hell, you don't even contend for the playoff you're in rebuilding mode. If you signing a bunch of veterans and trying to squeeze them instead of playing youngsters, that's your own fault.

And yes, you're winning in 2009. So far. Don't forget you guys started out pretty damn shitty, and the season is long from over. If you continue to do well today and into next year, congratulations, you're rebuilt. At this point it's still too early to call though.
_________________
Rules:
1. I am always right.
2. If I am ever wrong, read rule number 1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
retep
Player/Manager


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1043
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, there is a difference between rebuilding and.... loosing.

As far as this year... of course it's early and the Giants could well land in last place. Forgive me for engaging in some hyperbole.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
TheLegend
Babe Ruth


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 719
Location: Oakland, duh.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's pretty hard to support a GM who is losing and not rebuilding. They are supposed to be the same. Just don't mention it to the Pirates.
_________________
Living to Win! Click this link! Read my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
retep
Player/Manager


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1043
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheLegend wrote:
It's pretty hard to support a GM who is losing and not rebuilding. They are supposed to be the same. Just don't mention it to the Pirates.


I agree! I think what the Giants did is kinda similar to how Atlanta has responded to the end of their rule... a mix of old veterans (Glavin, Garret Anderson) but not making a choice to rebuild.

It sucks to be a fan when it happens, but its understandable to not react at once when you start loosing... keep thinking you're one or two players away from winning again.

Actually, aren't the A's sorta doing that now?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tayster
Perennial All-Star


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it, the A's will putter around without doing anything significant till they get a new ballpark wherever.
_________________
Rules:
1. I am always right.
2. If I am ever wrong, read rule number 1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
retep
Player/Manager


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1043
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tayster wrote:
The way I see it, the A's will putter around without doing anything significant till they get a new ballpark wherever.


I agree, and it's fucked up. I was hopeful when Wolfe came around but he's worse than anyone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tayster
Perennial All-Star


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

retep wrote:
Tayster wrote:
The way I see it, the A's will putter around without doing anything significant till they get a new ballpark wherever.


I agree, and it's fucked up. I was hopeful when Wolfe came around but he's worse than anyone.
To be fair, I don't blame them very much. The coliseum sucks ass.
_________________
Rules:
1. I am always right.
2. If I am ever wrong, read rule number 1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
retep
Player/Manager


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1043
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, but you should try to then build a new stadium! And not in Fremont miles away from BART.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tayster
Perennial All-Star


Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

retep wrote:
Of course, but you should try to then build a new stadium! And not in Fremont miles away from BART.
They had a couple of sites laid out in Oakland, spent a few million of surveys (One by Jack London Square, the other in the Coliseum parking lot), and they were both nixed by the Oakland City Council. Fremont came about from Cisco's involvement, but that's been shut down now as well. So... who knows?
_________________
Rules:
1. I am always right.
2. If I am ever wrong, read rule number 1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Oakland Park Baseball Forum Index -> Shit-talking All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group